Hyflux    Last:0.21   -

Hyflux

Every investment comes with a risk .unless people who invest dun know the meaning of BOND ? people who lose money have to ask why they lose money. ITS all because of YOUR GREED. How can someone pay you an interest higher than the bank. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH IN THIS WORLD. IF all these aunties and uncles cannot take risk . Just put the money in the FD and stop complaining the low interest. If you want a ZERO risk investment PUT IN BANK and STOP ASKING FOR HIGH interest and ZERO RISK . It will only show how a sole loser looks like. Lose money. Forget it move on and learn from your own mistake. GROW UP

josemmm123      ( Date: 20-Jun-2021 10:56) Posted: har? what so different? both are sold by banks to the investors right? So investors suing the banks for MISPRESENTATION. Meaning the banks misled the elderly aunties and uncles into buying the bonds, be it lehmen bonds or hyflux bond by not telling them the risks involved. It can be anything. Can be bond, insurance, preference shares etc.. Because if elderly aunties and uncles can prove that the banks' sales agent misled them into buying any type of bonds, then can sue the banks liao ma...  Even if the banks introduce oil options, any type of investments to the aunties and uncles by telling them only the " nice to hear" stuff but purposely ignoring telling them the risks involves, then is mispresentation liao. Investment mis-selling claims: an overview of recent case-law in Hong Kong and Singapore and lessons to be learnt - Lexology   investshare      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 17:39) Posted: Far different from Lehman. Lehman was minibond which was something complex and so-called derivative. Hyflux is just simple bond, you loaned money to Hyflux, if it cannot pay up, you got nothing back. Simple.

 

Hi jose, Yes, again I agree with you completely.  The " fine print" , even though sometimes/often it does not stand up in court, is important and you must look out for it in any offer.  I think at this late stage Utico would not try to insert fine print which might jeapordize the deal they want to make.  I appreciate your discussion and insights.  Good luck to all.

 

haha.. ok thanks for ur view.. BUT must look out for " fine print" in the prospectus given by utico or any other offers :)

hyflux889      ( Date: 20-Jun-2021 21:50) Posted: Hi jose, Yes, I agree completely with your response to investshare - it' s all misreprentation.  But, no, I don' t agree that accepting the Utico offer let' s anyone off the hook.  Management of Hyflux, while probably not the best one' s to sue because they are not " deep pockets" - the banks and brokers are - most probably had insurance which might be a source of settlement if they are sued.  And I disagree that accepting any small (like 4%) offer on perps will discharge anything.  Most likely it only goes to show the real losses which were sustained due to all the unethical activities.  And showing real loss is a requirement for demonstrating that each investor was " damaged" .  So, no, I disagree that Hyflux management, the banks, or brokers get off the hook in any way by small investors insisting on some (minor) return instead of suffering a full 100% loss.  I have seen many large cases where demonstrating a loss, even by selling shares at a low price which later went up, was enough to force a settlement.  Good luck to all.  Never give up.

 

Hi jose, Yes, I agree completely with your response to investshare - it' s all misreprentation.  But, no, I don' t agree that accepting the Utico offer let' s anyone off the hook.  Management of Hyflux, while probably not the best one' s to sue because they are not " deep pockets" - the banks and brokers are - most probably had insurance which might be a source of settlement if they are sued.  And I disagree that accepting any small (like 4%) offer on perps will discharge anything.  Most likely it only goes to show the real losses which were sustained due to all the unethical activities.  And showing real loss is a requirement for demonstrating that each investor was " damaged" .  So, no, I disagree that Hyflux management, the banks, or brokers get off the hook in any way by small investors insisting on some (minor) return instead of suffering a full 100% loss.  I have seen many large cases where demonstrating a loss, even by selling shares at a low price which later went up, was enough to force a settlement.  Good luck to all.  Never give up.

 

Bro, just to verify...

if u accept the Utico offer, then u cannot sue the banks anymore because by accepting Utico offer, u discharge any liability of the banks. So u cannot go for both. U cant expect u get $$$ from utico and then sue the bank for refund? Usually there will be clauses in the Utico offer that will discharge all other liabilities of the hyflux management and i think also the banks u bought the bond from ...

So if u accept utico offer, the management of Hyflux will jump over the moon :) becos by accepting the utico offer, u are discharging any liabilities face by the Hyflux management. They will celebrate right :) The hyflux management will get off the hook 

Am I right?

 

hyflux889      ( Date: 20-Jun-2021 00:56) Posted: Hi bicycle,  Yes, you are right.  But the important thing is that the JM is not appointed to be a liquidator.  Liquidation is the very last option they should be considering.  A JM is appointed with the specific mandate to seek the most equitable outcome for ALL stakeholders.  This includes creditors, preference share holders, stockholders and employees.  Everyone.  In this particular case it is publically available information that the salable assets in liquidation will be less than 100m.  Exactly as you stated this will ALL go to the senior creditors, and eveyone else will get nothing.  But ONLY in a liquidation.  Liquidation is the choice of BW.  Why?  To protect their reputation (in the " business community" but not with common people)?  Or to get higher fees?  The Utico offer - also publically available information - will get the senior creditors 5% which is MORE than 100m.  It will also get perps, preference share holders, and even shareholders something.  Is there anyway this is not more equitable?  The problem for BW is that if Hyflux continues operation under the Utico offer, that the " mistakes" of all involved will come to light.  So they - BW - are gambling that every common investor is so discouraged that they will not object, and all the " mistakes" can be " lost" .  This is completely unethical. Hi investshare,  These perps were maketed, very " successfully" to unsophisticated people looking to invest their pension money.  The impression was given also that Hyflux, as a " water and power company" was somehow affiliated with the government, so these were " safe" investments.  What they were in fact were " bonds" issued to reduce the exposure of DBS!!  Not simple at all, alas for the aunties and uncles. Hi jose, You are right.  There is no money left at Hyflux so no point is going after them.  Go after the banks and brokers.  But also do not just walk away from Hyflux and the Utico offer, and let more people get away with brushing common people aside.  Object and insist that the Utico offer be accepted, then continue to go after banks and brokers.  And you are 100% correct, many were misled " intentionally" .  The simple fact is that if the perp holders are successful in insisting that the Utico deal is approved, they will get something.  Walking away is like not stopping to pick up 100$ in the street!  And you are right, there is a good chance that the banks and brokers will want to avoid investigation by MAS.  And if the common people show by insisting on the Utico deal that they are not walking away, it will make the banks and brokers think twice and hopefully realize they need to pay back something to avoid more scrutiny.  Giving up on the other hand will show them that investors don' t care and won' t do anything. I' m sorry I cannot see your post - it' s off the bootom of my page, but someone said that some of the 34,000 must have a lawyer in their family.  This may be true, but this is a big, highly sophisticated case, and will take a very well funded law firm to win it.  Most smaller lawyers could not afford to do this, and if they do it they will antagonize a lot of big lawyers and business interests and maybe get blacklisted.  BW is counting on no-one being able to sue them, because it will be too costly.  But they do not have to be sued to prevent them from liquidating.  The holders of perps need to contact SIAS and demand that SIAS represent on their behalf that the Utico deal is accepted.  Utico is already going to court to try to be heard.  If many, many people show up at the court in support it will make it very difficult for the judge to refuse to hear Utico.  And it will keep this Hyflux case in the news, rather than let it be swept away along with the life savings of so many. Thank you all for your replies and entering this discussion.  When things are unfair and unsophistated elderly people are " taken for a ride" it' s important to stand up and support them.  Good luck to all.

 

har? what so different? both are sold by banks to the investors right?

So investors suing the banks for MISPRESENTATION. Meaning the banks misled the elderly aunties and uncles into buying the bonds, be it lehmen bonds or hyflux bond by not telling them the risks involved.

It can be anything. Can be bond, insurance, preference shares etc..

Because if elderly aunties and uncles can prove that the banks' sales agent misled them into buying any type of bonds, then can sue the banks liao ma... 

Even if the banks introduce oil options, any type of investments to the aunties and uncles by telling them only the " nice to hear" stuff but purposely ignoring telling them the risks involves, then is mispresentation liao.

Investment mis-selling claims: an overview of recent case-law in Hong Kong and Singapore and lessons to be learnt - Lexology
 

investshare      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 17:39) Posted: Far different from Lehman. Lehman was minibond which was something complex and so-called derivative. Hyflux is just simple bond, you loaned money to Hyflux, if it cannot pay up, you got nothing back. Simple.

 

Hi bicycle,  Yes, you are right.  But the important thing is that the JM is not appointed to be a liquidator.  Liquidation is the very last option they should be considering.  A JM is appointed with the specific mandate to seek the most equitable outcome for ALL stakeholders.  This includes creditors, preference share holders, stockholders and employees.  Everyone.  In this particular case it is publically available information that the salable assets in liquidation will be less than 100m.  Exactly as you stated this will ALL go to the senior creditors, and eveyone else will get nothing.  But ONLY in a liquidation.  Liquidation is the choice of BW.  Why?  To protect their reputation (in the " business community" but not with common people)?  Or to get higher fees?  The Utico offer - also publically available information - will get the senior creditors 5% which is MORE than 100m.  It will also get perps, preference share holders, and even shareholders something.  Is there anyway this is not more equitable?  The problem for BW is that if Hyflux continues operation under the Utico offer, that the " mistakes" of all involved will come to light.  So they - BW - are gambling that every common investor is so discouraged that they will not object, and all the " mistakes" can be " lost" .  This is completely unethical.

Hi investshare,  These perps were maketed, very " successfully" to unsophisticated people looking to invest their pension money.  The impression was given also that Hyflux, as a " water and power company" was somehow affiliated with the government, so these were " safe" investments.  What they were in fact were " bonds" issued to reduce the exposure of DBS!!  Not simple at all, alas for the aunties and uncles.

Hi jose, You are right.  There is no money left at Hyflux so no point is going after them.  Go after the banks and brokers.  But also do not just walk away from Hyflux and the Utico offer, and let more people get away with brushing common people aside.  Object and insist that the Utico offer be accepted, then continue to go after banks and brokers.  And you are 100% correct, many were misled " intentionally" .  The simple fact is that if the perp holders are successful in insisting that the Utico deal is approved, they will get something.  Walking away is like not stopping to pick up 100$ in the street!  And you are right, there is a good chance that the banks and brokers will want to avoid investigation by MAS.  And if the common people show by insisting on the Utico deal that they are not walking away, it will make the banks and brokers think twice and hopefully realize they need to pay back something to avoid more scrutiny.  Giving up on the other hand will show them that investors don' t care and won' t do anything.

I' m sorry I cannot see your post - it' s off the bootom of my page, but someone said that some of the 34,000 must have a lawyer in their family.  This may be true, but this is a big, highly sophisticated case, and will take a very well funded law firm to win it.  Most smaller lawyers could not afford to do this, and if they do it they will antagonize a lot of big lawyers and business interests and maybe get blacklisted.  BW is counting on no-one being able to sue them, because it will be too costly.  But they do not have to be sued to prevent them from liquidating.  The holders of perps need to contact SIAS and demand that SIAS represent on their behalf that the Utico deal is accepted.  Utico is already going to court to try to be heard.  If many, many people show up at the court in support it will make it very difficult for the judge to refuse to hear Utico.  And it will keep this Hyflux case in the news, rather than let it be swept away along with the life savings of so many.

Thank you all for your replies and entering this discussion.  When things are unfair and unsophistated elderly people are " taken for a ride" it' s important to stand up and support them.  Good luck to all.

 

Far different from Lehman.
Lehman was minibond which was something complex and so-called derivative.
Hyflux is just simple bond, you loaned money to Hyflux, if it cannot pay up, you got nothing back. Simple.

 

One for all, all for one...hehe

josemmm123      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 15:50) Posted: higher chance that the banks that sold the hyflux bonds dun want to spoil my reputation... becos hyflux bond holders can tell stories of how the banks " misled" them into buying the hyflux bond or using strongarm tactics.. so the banks especially local banks may face questioning from MAS and may not want to be exposed or have their reputation damaged especially since  they are still selling very different type of bonds and may eventually  agree to compensate the bond investors. We got success stories before. LEHMAN Brothers.. I remember my aunt managed to get back her $$$ from the bank for her lehmen bros bond. I remember some elderly are able to get back their $$$ from the banks... Instead of going after hyflux or JM or even trying to make the utico deal works etc.. i think is just wasting time...  Might as well go for the banks... I think got chance leh cos if the sales person never inform u the risks involved, it means mispresentation and who knows. the banks may give in , in order to prevent MAS from investigating them and make a BIG story out of it. As for hyflux, the story is already so big and yet the directors also heck care, dun think there is any chance of getting anything from them la Bkng595      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 15:21) Posted: U are right! More chances getting some $ if u go after directors and the bank and professional advisors. Follow EHT creditors, class action against the board for misleading and non-disclosure of poor financial condition

 

higher chance that the banks that sold the hyflux bonds dun want to spoil my reputation... becos hyflux bond holders can tell stories of how the banks " misled" them into buying the hyflux bond or using strongarm tactics..

so the banks especially local banks may face questioning from MAS and may not want to be exposed or have their reputation damaged especially since  they are still selling very different type of bonds and may eventually  agree to compensate the bond investors.

We got success stories before. LEHMAN Brothers.. I remember my aunt managed to get back her $$$ from the bank for her lehmen bros bond. I remember some elderly are able to get back their $$$ from the banks...

Instead of going after hyflux or JM or even trying to make the utico deal works etc.. i think is just wasting time... 

Might as well go for the banks... I think got chance leh cos if the sales person never inform u the risks involved, it means mispresentation and who knows. the banks may give in , in order to prevent MAS from investigating them and make a BIG story out of it.

As for hyflux, the story is already so big and yet the directors also heck care, dun think there is any chance of getting anything from them la

Bkng595      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 15:21) Posted: U are right! More chances getting some $ if u go after directors and the bank and professional advisors. Follow EHT creditors, class action against the board for misleading and non-disclosure of poor financial conditions josemmm123      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 13:00) Posted: Elderly uncle and aunties who are mislead into buying hyflux bonds can sue the bank/financial institutes to get back some part of their $$. Lehman Brother' s bond, some elderly uncles and aunties managed to get back their $$$ from the banks/financial institutions 10+ years ago. At that time, there is no point for the uncles and aunties to sue Lehmen brothers right? Instead sue the banks/financial institutions for selling them the bond without telling them the risks involved. I think for hyflux bond, some bought the bonds with the sales agent telling them all the wonderful stories about hyflux WITHOUT telling them the risks involved, especially for elderly person. So instead of wasting time going after hyflux or the JM etc.. why not focus on going after the banks/financial institutions for misleading and possibly false representation. More chance to get back $$$

 

U are right! More chances getting some $ if u go after directors and the bank and professional advisors. Follow EHT creditors, class action against the board for misleading and non-disclosure of poor financial conditions

josemmm123      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 13:00) Posted: Elderly uncle and aunties who are mislead into buying hyflux bonds can sue the bank/financial institutes to get back some part of their $$. Lehman Brother' s bond, some elderly uncles and aunties managed to get back their $$$ from the banks/financial institutions 10+ years ago. At that time, there is no point for the uncles and aunties to sue Lehmen brothers right? Instead sue the banks/financial institutions for selling them the bond without telling them the risks involved. I think for hyflux bond, some bought the bonds with the sales agent telling them all the wonderful stories about hyflux WITHOUT telling them the risks involved, especially for elderly person. So instead of wasting time going after hyflux or the JM etc.. why not focus on going after the banks/financial institutions for misleading and possibly false representation. More chance to get back $$$. investshare      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 11:19) Posted: Anyone who invest in any bond must know that it may default.

 

Many bought Hyflux always appear during NDP ... Maybe think government related company ??

 

Some bought because of patriotism! and water is supposed strategic for Singapore survival!

josemmm123      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 13:00) Posted: Elderly uncle and aunties who are mislead into buying hyflux bonds can sue the bank/financial institutes to get back some part of their $$. Lehman Brother' s bond, some elderly uncles and aunties managed to get back their $$$ from the banks/financial institutions 10+ years ago. At that time, there is no point for the uncles and aunties to sue Lehmen brothers right? Instead sue the banks/financial institutions for selling them the bond without telling them the risks involved. I think for hyflux bond, some bought the bonds with the sales agent telling them all the wonderful stories about hyflux WITHOUT telling them the risks involved, especially for elderly person. So instead of wasting time going after hyflux or the JM etc.. why not focus on going after the banks/financial institutions for misleading and possibly false representation. More chance to get back $$$. investshare      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 11:19) Posted: Anyone who invest in any bond must know that it may default.

 

Elderly uncle and aunties who are mislead into buying hyflux bonds can sue the bank/financial institutes to get back some part of their $$.

Lehman Brother' s bond, some elderly uncles and aunties managed to get back their $$$ from the banks/financial institutions 10+ years ago.

At that time, there is no point for the uncles and aunties to sue Lehmen brothers right? Instead sue the banks/financial institutions for selling them the bond without telling them the risks involved.

I think for hyflux bond, some bought the bonds with the sales agent telling them all the wonderful stories about hyflux WITHOUT telling them the risks involved, especially for elderly person. So instead of wasting time going after hyflux or the JM etc.. why not focus on going after the banks/financial institutions for misleading and possibly false representation. More chance to get back $$$.

investshare      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 11:19) Posted: Anyone who invest in any bond must know that it may default.

 

Why can' t Kepple took 70% oftuas spring like what it is holding singspring? Instead of investing in India ! Ceca is bad for Singapore citizens!
 

simplesimon      ( Date: 19-Jun-2021 11:46) Posted: Plant name Date of commissioning Maximum capacity (ML/day) Operator SingSpring 2005 136.4[39] Hyflux (30%), Keppel (70%) Sungei Tampines 2007 4[40][41] PUB Tuaspring 2013 320[40] PUB Tuas Desalination Plant (TDP) 2018 137[42] PUB Keppel Marina East Desalination Plant (KMEDP) 2020[43] 137[44] Keppel Jurong Island Desalination Plant (JIDP) Construction commenced 2018, Expected in 2021 137[45] Tuas Power-Singapore Technologies Marine (TP-STM) consortium Punggol Desalination Plant (PDP) Unknown

 

Plant name	Date of commissioning	Maximum capacity (ML/day)	Operator
SingSpring	2005	136.4[39]	Hyflux (30%), Keppel (70%)
Sungei Tampines	2007	4[40][41]	PUB
Tuaspring	2013	320[40]	PUB
Tuas Desalination Plant (TDP)	2018	137[42]	PUB
Keppel Marina East Desalination Plant (KMEDP)	2020[43]	137[44]	Keppel
Jurong Island Desalination Plant (JIDP)	Construction commenced 2018, Expected in 2021	137[45]	Tuas Power-Singapore Technologies Marine (TP-STM) consortium
Punggol Desalination Plant (PDP)	Unknown

 

Anyone who invest in any bond must know that it may default.

 

Hi, I think its common knowledge that ranking of shareholder is right at the bottom in bankruptcy proceeding. I think you are confuse with the legal rights standing of different stakeholders. Not all stakeholders have the same priority claim. Shareholder is right at the bottom of all stakeholders.

https://tkqp.com.sg/thootheh/2020/10/Singapore_-Restructuring-_038-Insolvency-3rd-edition1.pdf
the link may not work properly. you can google

5. How do creditors and other stakeholders rank on an insolvency of a debtor? Do any stakeholders enjoy particular priority (e.g. employees, pension liabilities)? Could the claims of any class of creditor be subordinated (e.g. equitable subordination)?

Secured creditors (aside from floating charge holders) rank outside the liquidation, and may realise their security notwithstanding the appointment of a liquidator. However, secured creditors who participate in the liquidation process by voting in respect of their secured debt are deemed to have forfeited their security. The Companies Act also provides that the following classes of debt have priority over all unsecured debts in the following order: a. the costs and expenses of the winding up b. wages and salaries of employees (up to a prescribed limit) c. retrenchment benefits (up to a prescribed limit) d. work injury compensation under the Work Injury Compensation Act e. contributions to employee&rsquo s superannuation or provident funds f. remuneration in respect of vacation leave and g. tax and goods and service tax. In addition, items (a), (b), (c), (e) and (f) in the list above will be paid in priority overthe claims of any floating charge holders. Where there are insufficient assets to satisfy any one class of debts, the debts within the same class are paid out on a pari passu basis. Any residual assets of the company remaining after payment of all secured, preferred and unsecured creditors will be divided amongst the company&rsquo s shareholders, first in accordance with the terms of their preference shares, and then equally amongst the ordinary shareholders.

If you really think BW is not fulfuling its fiduciary duties, they are susceptible to legal suit compensation claims. 

I' m sure out of the 34000 pnp and shareholders, there must be at least a few lawyers, or parties with lawyers as family members. You have to wonder why they can' t or didn' t do anything about this.

Like I say, you have a better chance at suing OL & co for maybe misrepresentations, as well as suing the brokers/the pnp banks. You are barking up the wrong tree by harping on utico' s offer.

 

Hi vicloo, yes, you are right of course.  Once PUB took Tuaspring the deal was not very attractive to the Indonesian company.

Hi jose, I agree - the elderly investors, or anyone who got duped, should follow both strategies - try to find lawyer(s) who will sue the brokers and banks, and do this for a share of the money instead of for an upfront fee which no-one can afford.  SIAS should help them do this  These investors should also demand that BW accept the Utico offer because it gives them something instead of nothing.

Hi TA, Thanks.  What I see from your link to reedsmith is this:
The JM is obligated as follows per law

1. Do the best for the company and all its stakeholders and keep the company going (    i.e not take sides for ANY creditors&hellip .Junior or Senior)
2. Do all possible to save the company &ndash either full or in part ( sell some assets but not all, but keep the company going as a &ldquo going concern&rdquo ) with the Highest recovery to all stakeholders.
3. Liquidate equitably to all stakeholders

  The current JM is not doing any of the 3 above.
This is important for all investors to know - BW is NOT acting in the best interests of the stakeholders.

Hi bicycle, Please see the above for the legal obligations of the JMs.  It is a serious matter that they are not doing what they are required to do.  Utico is offering 5% to senior creditors (and 4% to junior creditors, and equity to shareholders).  This is also public information.  This 5% is more than the 100mS$, and 4% and equity is more than zero.  Why are the JMs not accepting this?  Can there be any other reason than they are acting in their own best interests?  So bicycle you can see that the legal obligations of the JMs are not what they would have you believe - they are not required to solely look to help only the senior creditors.  Their legal obligation is to do the 3 things listed above.  And they are doing none of them.  The Utico offer will do all three - get the senior creditors more than they would get in liquidation, get the junior creditors more than zero which they would get in liquidation, get the shareholders more than zero which they would get in liquidation.  Keep Hyflux running in some form.  The only thing the Utico offer will not do is provide an ongoing stream of money to BW as they liquidate slowly until there is no more cash!  This is the only reason I can see why BW would prevent Utico' s offer from being accepted.  An ugly situation indeed.

Thank you all for your postings and input.  If enough people who lost money in this mess complain and demand that the Utico offer be accepted, there is a chance we can stop this before it ends even worse than it has got already.  For all the uncles and aunties it is important that none of us accept being swept aside.  Good luck to all.


 

 

Indo walkoff because PUB took Tuas spring FOC few days b4 deal... is like buying chicken farm... but sorry, there is no farm left.. just take the chicken and go... would you still buy?

Hyflux worth loss 90% on that day TS (1.3B was taken)....

RichardTeo      ( Date: 17-Jun-2021 12:11) Posted: --- Post Removed by User ---